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paulbardell View Drop Down
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    Posted: 08 Sep 2011 at 17:25


Paul

Hope she is feeling better soon.

Regards

Paul B


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John-G View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote John-G Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Sep 2011 at 14:48
Paul,
Sorry to hear the news , I hope she gets better soon.
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Paul R Hare View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Paul R Hare Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Sep 2011 at 14:14
Due to unforseen cicumstances (related to my wife health) I have had to hand planing the conference over to Paul Leaman.
please give him your support.
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Paul R Hare View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Paul R Hare Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Jul 2011 at 20:36
back to the Conference.
We now have committee approval o the planning starts in earest.
If any one has ideas for speakers, or anything else, either post them here or e-mail me at paulhare@talktalk.net.
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Errol Martyn View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Errol Martyn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Jul 2011 at 04:44
"In conclusion I thougt to raise the Bishop issue only as an example of the fairly recent example of debunking heroes and to examine the reasons for this aspect of historical literature. All of us are aware of the Paul Cowan controversy in Canada and the subsequent Standing Senate Committee enquiry, which was highly criticial of the Cowan docu-drama."
 
I've not followed the Canadian bun-fight, but for those interested in learning the facts regarding Bishop's claimed aerodrome raid for which he was awarded the VC I can do no better than recommend Philip Markham's deeply researched article that appeared in Over the Front, Vol 10, No 3, Fall 1995, pp240-262 - 'The Early Morning of 2 June 1917 - Summary of an Unseccessful Research Project'.
 
The project was 'unsuccessful' in the sense the Markham, using British and German documents, set out in the hope that he might find confirmation of Bishop's claims of 2 June 1917 only to be forced to conclude that 'I have been unable to discover any supporting evidence; in fact it has been quite the reverse.'
 
Needless to say, no one else has since been able to discover any supporting evidence either!
 
Errol
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Paul R Hare View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Paul R Hare Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jul 2011 at 08:10
It looks to me as though, subject to approval (The day will come soon when i can stop saying that!!) you have talked yourself into a job.
If you want to discuss this further with me, outside of this forum, my e-mail is paulhare@talktalk.net
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Gary Scanlan View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gary Scanlan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jul 2011 at 03:26
Dear Nick and Paul
I think since I started this to some degree, it is only fair that I at least put a draft paper together which can be distributed among those interested. I had to retire two years ago because of heart failure, and am due for a couple of sessions of surgery in July and August. I thought therefore that since the first seminar will, if it goes ahead take place in the summer of 2012, that I could put something together for everyone to read and comment upon by say October (part of my convalescence). By then we may have some idea of the numbers interested in this topic. If people then contribute, add to, criticise the draft we could put forward, say by the spring a seminar paper which could give direction to the discussions at the meeting.
I thought first to look at contrasts with war time memoirs, I think contrasting McCudden and Richthofen would be a reasonable start. Nick's comments in this regard have convinced me some useful points can be made.
Consideration could then move to the post war literature using two books written before the trauma of the Great Depression and the rise of Nazi Germany. I thought Scott's 60 Squadron and the Wind in the Wires would be useful.
Finally, two examples of works written at the beginning and middle of the thirties when the change in attitudes to the war was apparent could be examined. I thought to use here Sagittarius Rising and Warbirds by Vigilant. In doing so I will to some degree be keeping within the narrow bounds set out in my first post. I will try and keep it short, say 2000-2500 words so as to make incorporation of  new ideas easier. At least this is an excuse to buy new copies of Vigilant and Richthofen from the CCI shop.
In conclusion I thougt to raise the Bishop issue only as an example of the fairly recent example of debunking heroes and to examine the reasons for this aspect of historical literature. All of us are aware of the Paul Cowan controversy in Canada and the subsequent Standing Senate Committee enquiry, which was highly criticial of the Cowan docu-drama. 
However, the phenomena of debunking is very much a child of the late sixties and was the subject of a famous libel case which went to the House of Lords. Please forgive me if you are aware of this case.
The facts are interesting. A young David Irving in conjunction with Cassell Ltd published a work which claimed that Jack Broome, the officer commanding the naval escort  to the ill fated PQ17 convoy was both incompetent and a coward. Irving and the publishers know there was no foundation in this, furthermore the research of Irving and his conclusions were shoddy and sleazy in the extreme, but both parties cynically concluded that if Broome sued for libel (which he did), the damages awarded would be more than balanced by the sales revenue, the book would also bring Irving to the notice of the public. The House of Lords however, endorsing the lower courts awarded Broome punitive or exemplary damages which wiped out by a large margin any profits made by the book. I will be signing off for now but will be back in a couple of weeks. 
Best wishes      
Gary
      
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Errol Martyn View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Errol Martyn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Jul 2011 at 23:38
"Errol has also raised a point re Bishop's claims, where does delusion end and sheer confusion in battle begin"
 
Accepting a VC for a non-existent raid on a non-existent enemy airfield (no witnesses produced and absolutely not so much as a hint found in any German record of such an event ever having taken place on said date) could be the point where his delusion began. It certainly didn't end there.
 
Errol
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Paul R Hare View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Paul R Hare Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Jul 2011 at 19:01
I think Nick is correct here, Bishop is a topic big enough to debate worldwide and never reach a conclusion.
But a paper/ discussion on historiography  during the conference (If approval is given) still seems like a good idea if someone is willing to take it on.
I am open to offers.
 
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NickForder View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NickForder Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Jul 2011 at 16:58
I rather think ' Bishop : Fact or Fraud ?' is big enough subject to take up an entire conference, and still not resolve anything...
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