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Spad identification help request

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yossarian View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote yossarian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Jan 2011 at 13:36
Persactly!  ;-)
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yossarian View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote yossarian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Jan 2011 at 14:08
Nick, you do seem to be a mine of information.... you wouldn't have an extract would you (MC - personal histories).  Star  pm/email?

Edited by yossarian - 10 Jan 2011 at 14:13
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NickForder View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NickForder Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Jan 2011 at 14:30
Norman
I'll look at Keen stuff and 19 Squadron colours, but probably not until next weekend as I'm trying to make soem sense of the early days of AV Roe & Co at the moment
Nick
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yossarian View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote yossarian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Jan 2011 at 16:45
Thanks Nick,

This project is rolling along gently, it sits alongside a couple of others doing the same thing. Any light that you or anyone else can cast into the dark corners will be very much appreciated. I will share as much as I can with the Cross & Cockade forum if people are interested.

As a footnote, I just found this website. I used to live close to and knew the Shuttleworth Collection quite well, but these people have taken the business of WW1 aircraft restoration/scratch build to a new level.



Edited by yossarian - 10 Jan 2011 at 17:23
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NickForder View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NickForder Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Jan 2011 at 08:39

Notes on British built SPAD VII s

 

Due to engine vibration the wooden engine bearers were fitted with metal plates. The RFC preferred to use steel box girders riveted to the outside faces of the bearers. Unclear whether this was done to all the SPADs used by the RFC (i.e. the French built aircraft operated by 19 and 23 Squadrons).

 

There is evidence to suggest that the extra strengthening of the engine bearers was restricted to the British built SPADs as both Brook-Popham and 19/23 Squadrons reported that Addelstone-built SPADs, compared to French built aircraft, were slower, had a slower rate of climb, lower ceiling and flew nose heavy.

 

Certainly the French built SPADs were modified before issue to RFC squadrons : “A strip of vertical lacing was therefore inserted behind the cockpit on the portside, and from that point aft along the bottom longeron to the tailskid lacing was also fitted.”

 

Aircraft built under licence by the Bleriot & SPAD company (of Addlestone, later the Air Navigation Co Ltd) aircraft had a fairing over the breech of the Vickers gun. This reduced the forward view. Addlestone built SPADs supplied to 19 and 23 Squadrons had the fairing removed. Aircraft supplied to 30 and 63 Squadrons in Mesopotamia, and 72 Squadron in Palestine, retained the fairing. Addlestone SPADs also had different radiators, which held 1.5 pints/0.85 litres less water.

 

Aircraft were returned to Mann Egerton’s for strengthening as “there were a great many divergences in the machines from the drawings.” It was also noted that the ME SPADS originally featured wing fabric fitted in the French way (i.e. nailed to the trailing edges rather than sewn with cord, leading to fabric coming off during violent manoeuvres and dives) and this was rectified when the aircraft were returned to the factory. No ME built SPADs served with the BEF in France. 19 ME SPADs were shipped to the USA. It is unknown for what purpose they were used or, indeed, whether all the French built SPADs were XIII s.

 

Belgian operated SPADs

15 SPAD VIIs, numbered SP1 to SP15) were delivered to the Belgian Aeronautique Militaire in March 1917. Seven additional aircraft were ordered later, presumably as replacements (SP17-22) as the 5th Escadrille was the only unit to operate the type. The 5th Escadrille was based at Les Moeres and renamed the 10th Escadrille in February 1918.

 

In March 1918 the first SPAD XIIIs began to arrive from France to replace aircraft serving with the 10th Escadrille. These were part of a batch of 37 aircraft, confusingly numbered SP1 to SP37. An unknown number of additional SPAD XIIIs were ordered postwar. It is believed that these carried serials sequential to the first batch. The latter aircraft were operated by the 3rd, 4th and 10th Escadrilles until replaced by the Nieuport 29 in the early 1920s.

 

At least 31 SPAD XIs were acquired by the Belgians in 1918, the first one being delivered to Calais-Beaumaris on February 2. These aircraft were also numbered sequentially from SP1. The type equipped the 4th Escadrille d’Observation (Zebra) at Hondschoote, and the 5th and 6th Escadrille d’Observation at Houthem. Some of these aircraft later formed part of the occupation forces and were stationed at Bochum in Germany. The type was retired from service in 1921.

 

A single SPAD XVI, which was essentially a SPAD XI with a 240 hp Lorraine 8Bb engine, was acquired for evaluation purposes. Unfortunately the serial of this aircraft is unknown.

 

Sources :

“The First Fighting Spads”, J M Bruce, Air Enthusiast 15 (all quotes from this source)

WW1 Survivors, R L Rimell, Aston Publications

Spad Fighters, Squadron Signal

Spad VII and XIII, AirCam

Michel Wilmot, IPMS Belgium

WW1 Aero 139, Feb 1993

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NickForder Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Jan 2011 at 08:39

SPAD Survivors

 

SPAD VII

 

B9913                        Virginia Aviation      Mann Egerton built

                        Museum                   

 

B9916            San Diego                 Mann Egerton built between June and

                        September 1917

All major components from the same original airframe

Engine 150 hp American built Hispano

(no internals)

Owned by Shannon Technical School, Portland, Oregon

Rebuilt by students in 1930s

Sold to Swede Ralston

Reworked for Ralston by Pete Bowers in 1960s

Sold to Dolf Overton (Wings & Wheels)

Loaned for displayed at NASM until late 1970s

Extensively rebuilt by James S Ricklefs, California

Purchased by San Diego following 6-12-1981 auction at Christies

Displayed at San Diego without further restoration

June 1990 Jim Appleby asked to undertake restoration of fuselage and tailplane. San Diego volunteers restored the wings, struts etc

Restoration completed 1993 (?)

Now on display at San Diego

 

‘AS-94099’    Wright Patt                Purchased by US Government for use as

trainer in August 1918

Transferred to McCook Field Museum 1922

Fitted with Wright-built 180 hp Hispano-Suiza E2 1924

Loaned to Museum of Science & Industry, Chicago, 1932

To USAF Museum. Wright Patterson, 1953

Restoration to airworthy condition at Selfridge AFB, Michigan, 1962

Restoration work complete 18 June 1965 – aircraft flown

Displayed in incorrect finish – camouflaged, 103 Aero Sqn markings, spurious ‘3733’ serial

 

c/n 193           ?                                  Tallmantz

WW1 Survivors incorrectly identifies this as B9916

Kermit Weeks

Badly damaged by hurricane at Tamiami Airport, Florida

 

248/N9727V  Memorial Flight        Wings built by Mann Egerton ?

                                                            Composite ?

                                                            Served with AEF during WW1

                                                            Shipped to USA                                                                                                       Refurbished by Wrights

                                                            Used in Men with Wings film        

                                                            Aeroflex

Restored by Paul Mantz in colours of SPAD XIII flown by Rickenbacker

Wings & Wheels

Purchased by Bleriot family at Christies auction

On loan to IWM Duxford

On loan to Memorial Flight (Dugny) for restoration (to fly ?)

 

S2489                        Museo Baracca        Believed to have been flown by Baracca

Features camera pot on lower left fuselage

Exact history unknown

Restored at  Vigna di Valle in 1967

 

S1420                        Museo Storico ’        Flown by Ernesto Cabruna (ace credited

                        dell’ Aeronautica      with 8 aeroplanes & 2 balloons)

Militaire Italiana        Displayed Genoa 1921

                                                            Donated to Tortona (Cabruna’s home town)

25 March 1923

October 1934 displayed at entrance to Milan Aviation Show (missing lower wing panels, general condition poor)

Returned to Tortona

1943 walled up in a cellar to protect it

c1968 doanted to Italian Air Force

Taken to Vigna di Valle for restoration

Current scheme has some inaccuracies

Aircraft lacks machine gun and tyres

 

?                   Museo Storico             Flown by Fulco Ruffo di Calabria (ace)

dell’ Aeronautica      Government presented Ruffo with his

Militaire Italiana        SPAD in April 1919

1923 donated to Royal Aero Club of Naples

Displayed at Capodichino airfield, Naples

Displayed Turin 1928

Displayed Air Force Academy, Caserta

1934 displayed at Milan

1935 noted as being complete with engine but lacking instruments

Substanial remains rediscovered at Caserta in 1960s (centre section etc)

Used as basis for a travelling exhibit and painted to resemble Baracca’s SPAD

Incorrectly described as a replica it is largely original

S11583/

L-B126           Kbely                          In 1919-1920 128 aircraft were purchased

from France including 50 SPAD VII and XIII scouts

Served with 3rd Air Regiment, Czech

Air Force, at Nitra 1919-1925

Westczech Aeroclub, Plzen, 1925-1930, marked as L-BIZI

National Technical Museum 1937-1980

November 1980 moved to Kbley for restoration by Letov in French camouflage and Czech markings (representing pre-1922 finish)                 

180 hp Hispano-Suiza engine works – fitted with SPAD XIII prop

 

S254/

c/n 15295      Musee de l’Air          Guynemer

                                                            Displayed Hotel des Invalides, Paris

4 year restoration started in 1981

1981 displayed at Armee del’Air Academy, Salon-de-Provence

Original fabric

 

SPAD XIII

 

S16541          Old Rhinebeck         Built 1918

                                                            Kelly Field 1921

Owned by Colonel Benjamin Kelsy c1930 of Bethany, Connecticut

1930 flown to Roosevelt Field for repair work

Acquired by Roosevelt Field in lieu of hangar rent and placed in museum

Purchased by Cole Palen in 1951 for $200 (missing radiator, cowling, exhaust pipes, prop etc)

October 1956 restoration to fly completed at Old Rhinebeck

Retired in 1971

Restored again in 1989 by Gordon Bainbridge for USAF Museum, Dayton, but deal cancelled

 

 

c/n 15295?    Musee de l’Air          Displayed at Chalais Meudon in

unusual camouflage scheme

Painted to represent S5925, SPA 103, an aircraft flown by Fonck

 

4377               La Ferte Alais           On loan from Salis Collection

Restored to fly 1990 by Memorial Flight

 

8340               Musee de l’Air          Fuselage only. In store.

 

SP49              Musee Royal de

l’Armee                      Bruxelles. 37 SPAD XIIIs were purchased from France in 1918 (arrived in March) and an unknown number were ordered postwar. These aircraft were numbered SP1 onwards, suggesting that SP49 is a postwar aircraft (however the numbering system is complicated by the fact that Belgian operated SPAD VIIs were numbered from SP1 to SP22). Wartime service of the SPAD XIII was limited to the 10th Escadrille but postwar the type was also operated by the 3rd and 4th Escadrilles until replaced by the Nieuport 29 in the early 1920s. SP49 was donated to the museum at this time. It was orginally suspended from the ceiling along with a Camel, Nieuport 23 etc. In 1975 the SPAD was sent to the former Elementary Flying School at Goetsenhoven for restoration. The restored aircraft is now marked as an aircraft of the 10th Escadrile.

 

?                      AJD Engineering

UK                              Parts only (exchanged with Memorial Flight for replicated Avro 504K metal parts).

 

S7689                        NASM                                    Built by Kneller

Fitted with Peugeot-built 220 hp Hispano-Suiza No 119436 and armed with two Marlin machine guns

Purchased from France by US Government in 1918

Flown by Lt A Raymond Brooks (6 claims), 22 Aero Sqn, and named Smith IV (after college attended by fiancee, Ruth M Connery, as Brooks decided not to name aircraft after Ruth directly)

Later flown by Lt Clinton Jones, after Brooks was wounded

Brooks selected to bring two SPADs back to US for evaluation

Chose Smith IV as one of these

Acquired by Smithsonian

Restored 1985-12 November 1986

 

 

SPAD 16.A2

 

A59392          USAF Museum        Flown in 1918 by Billy Mitchell

Displayed suspended at NASM

Moved to USAF Museum, Wright Patterson AFB, for restoration in 1988

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NickForder View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NickForder Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Jan 2011 at 08:41

HOW TO TELL A BRITISH-BUILT SPAD 7 FROM A FRENCH-BUILT SPAD 7

by Ellic Somer (via Gregory Alegi)

 

The Spad 7 was built in three countries, France, England and Russia.

The chance of finding a Russian-built Spad is equivalent to the

chance that the Chattahoochee river will freeze in Georgia in July.

All the aircraft in France were built, so far as we know, to the same

drawings and specifications, and yes, Virginia, SPAD had internal

specifications to supplement their drawings.

England was a different situation, there were two constructors,

Mann-Egerton and British Bleriot. British Bleriot seems to have

followed SPAD as I have their parts catalog for the S-7 and it calls

out the same part numbers as the French parts list I have for the

S-7. Mann-Egerton is a different deal. They were given a sample

aircraft and they made a whole new drawing set converted to

inch-units.

At least one French-built Spad 7 arrived in the US and went to McCook

Field and eventually came to rest in the USAF Museum at

Wright-Patterson AFB. A group of Mann-Egerton-built machines was sent

to the US during the war. After the war some machines came to the US

for private use but I have no idea of how many; however, I have seen

photographs of at least two derelict aircraft which I think were

French-built. I believe it is safe to say that any Spad 7 purchased

in the US will be a Mann-Egerton machine and can be identified as

follows:

1. The engine mount "spider" that joins the upper and lower longerons

to the engine mount is steel on two aircraft that can be positively

identified as Mann-Egerton machines and on a third one which is

almost positive. The "spider", as designed, cracked in service and

the British proposed the steel "spider". The French rejected the

design as too heavy and in any case they were short of steel. They

elected to beef up their design with wood stiffeners and two large

aluminum gussets.

2. Any government inspection stamps will be AID (Aircraft Inspection

Directorate) for the British and SFA (Service Fabrique Aeronautique)

for the French.

3. Any part number will be in the 6000 range for the French and M-xxx

for Mann-Egerton.

4.  The French added brace wires and an extra horizontal member in

the engine compartment, but Mann-Egerton did not.

5. Because of the way the French attached the fabric to the wings, it

tended to come off. To cure this problem, Mann-Egerton covered the

leading edge with plywood top and bottom, and sometimes cut

lightening holes in the plywood.

 

Here is how I came up with this information:

1. The engine mount "spider" is discussed in correspondence found in

the PRO by Jack Bruce.

2. The shedding of fabric came from the same source.

3. Jim Petty got hold of some Spad-shaped junk and some of it was

identified as part of B9913, a Mann-Egerton number;  it had a steel

"spider" and AID stamps in the fuselage but the wings had no plywood

on the leading edge or AID stamps. A set of French-built wings with a

Mann-Egerton fuselage: interesting.

4. I personally had in my hands cowling pieces stamped 9914 which

came from a fuselage with a steel "spider" and AID stamps, and a pair

of lower wings with plywood leading edges, AID stamps and plywood

compression ribs with screwed and glued stiffeners.

5. I worked with Jim Appleby who was restoring and S-7 that had a

steel spider, AID stamps, the serial number B9916, plywood leading

edges and M-xxx numbers on parts of the stabilizer.

6. The SPAD drawings call for spruce compression ribs with a milled

stiffener and Mann-Egerton used plywood compression ribs with

stiffeners screwed and glued to them.

7. The French rear machine gun mount was aluminum while Mann-Egerton

provided a steel rear mount.

 

To summarize, these all add up to Mann-Egerton Spads:

1. Steel "spider"

2. AID stamps

3. No extra bracing in the engine compartment

4. Serial numbers in the 9900 range

5. Plywood leading edges

6. Plywood compression ribs

7. Part numbers in the M-xxx form

8. Steel machine gun mount.

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Alex Revell View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Alex Revell Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Feb 2011 at 13:54
I'm very surprised that this  post has not attracted more interest. Yossarian seems to have a treasure trove here of very interesting photos, which have turned up after so many years.
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John McKenzie View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote John McKenzie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Feb 2011 at 18:28
 Mann-Egerton Spad S7 ....Main petrol ," belly " tank is different to French ones due to difference here , in shape of the lower fuselage Longerons .
JM

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NickForder View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NickForder Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Feb 2011 at 08:28

SPAD Markings

19 Squadron

To BEF 30.7.1916, equipped with BE12

No squadron markings allocated, but white dumbbell on fuselage sides aft of cockade adopted from about October 1916. A Flight has white wheel covers, B Flight red and C Flight blue. Individual aircraft numbers 1-6 in flight colours. Flight colours fell in to disuse due to losses.

In October 1916 re-equipment with Spads started, but was not completed until Feb 1917. The dumbbell appeared on the fuselage sides still, but this time n black.

In May 1917 19 Squadron moved to Liettres. Attacks by RNAS aircraft unfamiliar with Spads resulted in a number of initiatives which lasted at least until August 1917.

Dark brown sleeve laced around rear fuselage with flight letter in white. Or flight letter in white without sleeve.

Later red/white/blue bands were painted behind the fuselage cockade.

Wheel covers red/white/blue

White square aft of roundel allocated 26.8.1917, but probably not worn.

In November 1917 letters and dark bands around rear fuselage.

 

23 Squadron

Re-equipped with Spads January 1917.

No squadron markings allocated.

Range of cowling stripes black/white narrow, or blue/white, all-red.

26.8.1917 white triangle behind the fuselage cockade, with letters behind :

A : A=F

B : L=Q

C : T=Z (+ letter on nose)

All wheel covers in white

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